American dream... Two heavy duty words back in the day. They meant a lot to anybody who came over here looking for a chance. There have always been immigrants. Always people who hated 'em too. But the folks who came here had a plan & it was pretty noble. Back in the day the measure of success for a family wasn't having the biggest TV in the tenement. Success wasn't about having corporate logos on your clothes either. Success was sending at least one of your children to college. Education was the 'ol brass ring and some families sacrificed insanely to achieve it. Any child of immigrants can tell you... "I was the first one in my family to go to college" was a big deal. The biggest. Weather or not you actually believe that Academia prepares you for the big bad world is irrelevant. You want to know what the dream is? Thats it. Bingo. Leave everything behind.. adopt a new land... join their army.. become a citizen... Work your ass off.. save every penny.. then make your kid smarter than you. So my pitch is simple. Great P. R for the Man and 100% tax deductible!10 four year scholarships. $5000 a year equals $200,000. $50,000 dollars a year spread out over 4 years to affect 10 peoples lives. Last year there was a fur covered rave bus that cost that much and it didn't even run. Now. I don't think this is necessarily an art thing. There is nothing unusual or artistic in giving out school grants. Not artistic... Not hedonistic... Not fun. But considering how much BM has gained from the youth culture wouldn't it be nice to give a little back? And after all. It fits in with the theme.
personally i think people look at college the wrong way. having gone to college and spent all the money and time only to realise that college gets you absolutely nowhere in life i can say that college is for suckers suckers like me however i would never take back the growth and development of both my social and intellectual skills that i gained from the college experience therefore its hard to say though that does mean that it doesnt matter in my opinion what you study in college or where you study it only that you feel engaged and interested because its the learning to learn.. the learning to listen and understand and challenge and debate.. and really just the wealth of knowledge youre exposed to.. thats what makes college important.. not the degree.. which is worth as much as the paper its printed on look up kanye west- school spirit skit 1 & 2 good stuff other than that i think the money could be better spent than on college scholarships.
<Sure every parent thinks their kids are amazing. And I don't know yours to agree or disagree with you... but yeah if your kids were out there asking for a handout from the BORG for college. I'd say fuck them too!>The kids she's talking about came into her life only a few years ago as the result of her meeting them through a friend. They're not flesh 'n' blood nor step-kids but unrelated kids who simply needed a chance. Tracy wasn't about to stand around and watch them go down the toilet as so many others would do (and have done). I've seen them grow up these past couple years and frankly. I'm amazed. They both come from some very sad broken situations and it was Tracy and Don who have helped put them back on the track that is making a big difference in their lives. As for college. I'm a college drop-out -- not even an AA to my name. I could say I've succeeded but there are times when having a BA in something would have set me on an easier career path. But college is more than that. I now know that I missed a lot by not going to a 4-year school. I missed a lot of bonding exposure to other kinds of people and exposure to other ideas that I probably should have had an earlier age.
<not raising hand> Here's why: I'm now 38 and a college student. When I graduated from high school. I decided that I did not want to go to college because it was a load of bull excrement: BS = bullshit MS = more shit PHD = piled high and deep. I have tried learning all sorts of stuff on my own. I have been successful at a lot of them. Where has it gotten me? Nowhere.. because every job that I could apply for to use my wealth of useless knowledge requires a degree. I even went to job service and unemployment once. They had a bunch of jobs that were open. A good 90% of them required a master's degree (that would only pay $8 an hour but that's another story). The point is that a person needs to know what they want to study and how they will use their degree after they get out.. before they even go in. To say "fuck the American children" to me is like saying "fuck me" because one day you (and I) will get old and these children will have something to do with taking care of me. I can't speak for anyone else but if I'm in need of medical attention nothing is worse than having someone trying to draw blood who doesn't know how. These people are supposedly educated. Saying "fuck the children" means it doesn't matter how educated or uneducated they are or are not.. yes a lot of jobs get outsourced but if you need that injection or to have blood drawn do you want someone with a 3rd grade education doing it? I mean.. fuck the children means their education may be over after the 3rd grade and they are now entering the workforce. Pretty scary if you ask me.
I'm not letting a 7th grade student stick a needle in my arm for any reason.. especially when there is potential for danger like when they had to get the blood from an artery (instead of a vein). No matter how "easy" phlebotomy is there is still a skill to it and many people aren't very good at it despite their training. I have worked with young people who can't figure out how much change to give a person if they don't have a calculator. Take away all money etc for education and I'm sure it would be 10 times worse. or worse. Many of these same young people can't read write spell remotely close to right add subtract.. but they know how to use cell phones text message (OMG INBD) and play video games. If this country is populated by people who are not educated because people in charge of the money don't think education is worth anything pretty soon all of the jobs that are outsourced to other countries will come back here because everyone who wants to work will only be qualified to work in a sweat shop. I'm sure everyone wants that right?
>Saying "fuck the children" means it doesn't matter how educated or uneducated they are or are not.. no it means its not my job to pay for your kids education personally i dont think that even needs further qualifications. BUT.. should gay couples that cant have kids have to pay for your children? should people that have been 'fixed'? these are groups that are expected to pay out for a service that will never be of use to them would you pay insurance on a car you didnt own? (yes i realize people can adopt or 'unfix' themselves but these are the obvious groups of people that have made the choice or are physically incapable of reproduction and so stereotypically would not have to worry about children)>because every job that I could apply for to use my wealth of useless knowledge requires a degree so is the problem that you didnt have a degree or that it was required? (in other words where you qualified otherwise have the knowledge that the job required?) the idea of a degree is a pretty good one but in practice (at least it seems to me) colleges give out degrees to people that pay for them which is not necessarily any indication at all of the actual comprehension or understanding of the subject at hand so basically with the system we have everyone is required by law to go through 12 years of schooling which does nothing for them and then figure out a way to pay tens of thousands of dollars to get their ''real" education.. which in turn has become simply (and solely) a gauge of whether one can pay for the degree or not and that all is to get the crappy $8 an hour job that doesnt do anything to pay off all those loans which were required to get the job (if they even get a job utilizing their degree...) its a vicious broken cycle and i dont think sending anyones kid through it is going to make it better.
The reality is... I don't personally have any children. I would much rather pay for a child that's not mine to go to college than to pay for some schmuck to sit on welfare collecting more and more money each month when they continue having babies that they can't support. I'd also much rather pay for someone else's child to go to school than to pay some politician (lawmaker) to sit on capital hill or wherever they are to make laws that govern how I live.. and ultimately when I break those laws it costs me more money to stay out of jail.. unless they deem the crime "too heinous" .. then I have to sit in jail for a while and when I get out. I still have to pay X number of dollars (as if the money is going to make everything okay). Then each time you turn around they are raising fees for everything because they "don't have enough money". That too is a vicious and broken cycle. They say "if you don't like it vote people out of office". I ask.. how many people do I have to vote out of office to put money in a township's or city's pocket? It's not going to happen.. not in this lifetime anyway. I would not pay for car insurance on a car I do not own. I won't pay for car insurance on a car I do own either. Why not? Because they are going to charge me an extra $3000 a year for liability only because I don't have 2 years of continuous coverage. I didn't have 2 years of continuous coverage because I didn't have a car for a while. So my car sits in the driveway unregistered and not moving because I can't and won't pay $3000 over and above the $1200 they'd charge me for liability. How come they do it? Because they can. What can I do to fix it? Nothing.. because insurance is required to register and operate a car. If everyone stopped driving they'd do something to fix that system but everyone won't stop driving. The point here is that there are a lot of broken and faulty systems in place. Many people disagree on how to fix these things but instead of trying one thing after another to fix them they stay the way they are because it's easier this way. I don't like it when they raise property taxes to pay for schools that are overcrowded with the children of illegal immigrants. I don't like it when they raise property taxes to pay for roads that I don't live on or travel at all. The list goes on and on. Giving up though is not the answer IMO. Saying "fuck the children" is giving up. Perhaps they could legislate having children out of existence. Lock anyone up who has a child for the next 18 years and put the child to death at age 3 days (or so) .. after they determine who the father is so they can lock him up too. Would that solve the problem? No... because then you'd have a bunch of people locked up for doing a thing that people have been doing for thousands of years. Maybe sending someone else's kid to college isn't making things any better... but what is the proposal to make things better?
>The reality is... I don't personally have any children. I would much rather pay for a child that's not mine to go to college than to pay for some schmuck to sit on welfare collecting more and more money each month when they continue having babies that they can't support this is getting very far off the idea of burner scholarships again but out of the two so would i some kids college is beter then some kids welfare.. but both? pay for people to sit on welfare etc and then pay for the children to go to school? that is sacrificing a possibly productive member of society for one that (at the moment) is not and teach the kid to expect things for free. >I would not pay for car insurance on a car I do not own. I won't pay for car insurance on a car I do own either. Why not? Because they are going to charge me an extra $3000 a year for liability only because I don't have 2 years of continuous coverage. I didn't have 2 years of continuous coverage because I didn't have a car for a while. So my car sits in the driveway unregistered and not moving because I can't and won't pay $3000 over and above the $1200 they'd charge me for liability. How come they do it? Because they can. What can I do to fix it? Nothing.. because insurance is required to register and operate a car. If everyone stopped driving they'd do something to fix that system but everyone won't stop driving i really hate insurance its a personal pet peeve of mine the very word makes my skin crawl last time i had insurance they told me to pay them $350 a month (for the basic doesnt-cover-anything insurance) when i had a perfect record and insurance coverage continuously from the time i first owned a car why? because i was a young male driving a 'fast car' in a high crime area the reality? it was a 4 cylinder firebird (which by every law of physics i can find should barely even move much less move fast the thing weighed 2 tons!) that i bought for $800 having to pay for the car nearly 4 times over every year because other people drive poorly or steal for coverage that wont even replace the car (or value) if anything -did- happen? ridiculous i told them to shove it personally id look into the uninsured motorist fee i never bothered but it was suggested to me when i was in that situation you basically pay the DMV a certain amount and tell them 'im not getting insurance' it doesnt help anything so dont get in an accident but it might get you on the road (which can make or break situations) ymmv.>Perhaps they could legislate having children out of existence. Lock anyone up who has a child for the next 18 years and put the child to death at age 3 days (or so) .. after they determine who the father is so they can lock him up too. Would that solve the problem? No... because then you'd have a bunch of people locked up for doing a thing that people have been doing for thousands of years having children has been legislated in other countries though its not something i would support myself but the opposite end encouraging and subsidizing people to have more children they cannot afford really seems to be completely moronic to me.>Maybe sending someone else's kid to college isn't making things any better... but what is the proposal to make things better?my thought earlier as the simplest fix would be for scholarships to go directly to schools have the schools compete for those not students then as the teachers are paid (possibly more) and whatever costs are paid (assuming the same amount of scholarships the schools would have roughly the same funding) make college tuition cheap if the books cost so much because it is a niche market and small window of 'current edition' subsidize THAT instead of passing the cost onto poor students make it so it is possible for someone to send themself through school without taking out a loan on their soul and without having to kill themself doing 100 hours a week (combined) to do it.
<I have tried learning all sorts of stuff on my own. I have been successful at a lot of them. Where has it gotten me? Nowhere.. because every job that I could apply for to use my wealth of useless knowledge requires a degree.>I guess it depends on time and circumstance. I was the chief technology officer lead software developer and software development manager for a start-up in the medical field. We put out software that assists in organ transplants. The software is now in use in transplant clinics across North America. Not only do I not have a computer science degree. I have no degree whatsoever. I dropped out of college to take care of my dad about 3 units shy of an AA. I got my job based on my ability and on the temp programming jobs I'd have prior to that. I lasted in the medical software job for just 2 months shy of 5 years which is a lifetime in the software industry. So there are some jobs out there that don't reqire degrees. There are jobs out there that don't even require resumes. I knew the owner of a radio station in Portland. She used to come into my restaurant. We would talk about the business my having had experience as a DJ in programming engineering etc. She hired me without even asking for a resume. I had a nightly talkshow on the station for 2 years.
what would you propose the guidelines be for deciding who gets those scholarships? i could get really cynical here so ill just leave it at that im in with the 'college doesnt cut it' crowd here so i would say if we were to suggest anything akin to this we should have year round classes teaching self reliance and self sustaining techniques things like basic construction. $50k a year could probably get a teacher for the whole year couple classes a week i think WE have more to teach people then the schools do and that would get our message and values out to more people then sending a couple people to school (and someone somewhere would probably argue that this practice was rather not radically inclusive and they might be right) i mean seriously having a class a month to teach people (not burners people like that homeless guy across the street) how to build hexayurts? one on how to convert diesel engines to veggie oil? BM does lead to learning new things i think just about everyone that has gone has learned something as a result of going so we should teach what we learn the most important thing to teach in my mind? the 'just fucking do it' ethos where it doesnt matter if you have a piece of paper that says you can do something just do it.
Instead of focusing on the curriculum perhaps the method of teaching would be the primary benefit of such and enterprise. My personally held belief is that Burning Man is at its best a community of playfully inclined individuals. For one week out of the year everyone can just play. It's like an oversized sandbox. Let's face it it's the kid in us that harbors that creative spark. It's the kid in us that desires to be seen and to create art towards this fundamental need. It's when that amazing potential is channeled into the "socially acceptable cut-and-dye" education process that it begins to wither and fade. Burning Man to me symbolizes the unrestrained purity in free-association play time. Perhaps if the youth of this country were allowed to figure out the manner of learning that would best suit their heart's desire then learning would be fun and more fruitful. If there were a Burner Curriculum I think that it would have to be built upon solid fundamental/spiritual principles and in the end be open enough so that the artisit/students would be able to spread their wings and fly in any direction. With the full support of a dynamic community of ex-ravers and malcontents : )
>And if you don't think children are worth sacrificing for and investing in then it's obvious nobody ever invested in you. Failed your Debate class in college fko? <snorfle>Not to mention Interpersonal Relations... Resorting to calling names and "obviously" statements doesn't seem like the behavior of someone who had a well-rounded college education that can be applied to the real world. Nope. I don't believe children are worth sacrificing for. That's what parents are for- you breed them you feed them (educate them teach them not to be dumbasses etc). I don't want anything to do with it as I think the world's overpopulated anyway and we need less people. I do agree that going to college can be beneficial for those who want to learn a specific skillset to be applied in the real world. And some do end up doing this. I also believe that in America college is just "the norm" and it's just sort of a given that you go there after high school. A lot of kids don't get anything out of it except partying perhaps an STD or pregnancy or two a bit of brain damage from drug use and maybe the odd useless fact about Napoleon or fluid dynamics. If they don't want to learn they won't and they're just using up resources that could be more effectively used elsewhere.
"I also believe that in America college is just "the norm" and it's just sort of a given that you go there after high school. "Sadly the facts don't show this as really being true though. Depending on your economic start your parents' level of education and the focus in the community lots are lucky to even make it to high school or ged level. Have to agree with some of the other points in that post. Especially if there is motivation to go beyond high school people will find it. Parents will sacrifice for it. Students will take out loans (federally guaranteed or otherwise) work through school or otherwise get it done. Maybe not always at 17/18 but when it becomes important enough to people. I dunno how many trust fund types had the college fund ready to go but I started at 16 knowing what I wanted to do found lots of help from both my mother guaranteed loans grants and working. It was fully predicted that I'd go off and just be f'd up then. Didn't happen. I say that only because it seems there is some anti-young sentiments in this thread. It's like we've forgotten about how much we actually knew then - and the potential.... We probably knew some things about life that too many "adults" have forgotten that are totally "real world"... in addition to how to make a mean long island of course ;-P
Heather. I did not resort to name calling. It was my opening act. You see as you so mentioned. I did not study interpersonal relationships in college. I studied physics. So when I look at your post all I see is numbers. In this case your numbers are opposed to other nubers set in motion with best intentions and sincere thoughtfulness. Since you want to attack the values and ideas of another positive thinking individual. I made the assumption that you wanted to be treated in kind. Maybe it validates your ideas about the world being a hateful place or maybe you are accustomed to victomizing yourself but in any case. I thought I was doing you a favor. I thought you enjoyed personal attacks. I did not realize it might strike a real nerve. I assumed you had those hidden away deeper. So I sincerely appologise if you were offended by my response. I will ner do it again as for the Original idea. I persoanlly love the idea that my ticket money will go to helping ( no sholorships provides completly for) a child's education wether good or bad whether it helps them actualize their own happiness or just spend the money on drugs and getting laid both are ok in my book. I would much rather see my money go to future burners than the ones who currently show up expecting that burning man is "about" anything oxoxofucko
>Ok a lot of weird very negative college vibe here. I wonder why? Didn't get to go? Not accepted where you thought you should go? Didn't get a big money job with your degree? dont want to go dont need to go i have the same philosophical problem with college as it is currently as i do with insurance its a racket and the only way the racket continues is that everyone buys into it and yeah most kids that go to college dont get an education at all and yet they still get a piece of paper saying they did.. so now its a racket everyone is perpetuating that isnt even helping anything (except itself) as i said above i think the most positive (or one of anyways) things to bring away from BM is that you dont need a piece of paper in order to do something i can build a shade structure that survives the extreme conditions of the playa without a degree in engineering my neighbor with the degree can do the same thing and one or both of ours might still fall down. >And as someone else mentioned...*most* of the stuff you are hauling out to the playa and using to survive or entertain yourselves with was created by someone with a degree i think most of the stuff was created by uneducated foreign hands but that is neither here nor there you (they) possibly mean 'designed by' and i would still say that is incorrect.. a lot of the techniques we use have been developed on the playa for the playa by whoever happened to have the problem first no degree required just a problem and a solution a lot of the designs and technology we use out there has been around for a long time (hundreds of years in some cases) even a lot of the new stuff (barring the cutting edge high tech stuff) is simply a modification of old designs personally i think our schools are broken and would not want to support sending kids to them the colleges might be better and i will agree some people do learn something at them but the basic schooling in america is broken which makes the higher schooling broken (if the underlying structure is broken it doesnt matter how great the roof is its still busted).
<a lot of the designs and technology we use out there has been around for a long time (hundreds of years in some cases) even a lot of the new stuff (barring the cutting edge high tech stuff) is simply a modification of old designs.>Read an interesting or part of an interesting (okay maybe it wasn't all that interestingly written but the ideas were to me) called something like "A People's History of Science" that dealt with that issue. Nothing is really sui generus and a whole lot of collage is learning what went on before (very rote not very creative--possibly one reason that there has been such a negative reaction to the idea). Most knowledge is encoded in tradition although yes there can be value in iconclastism too. Get right down to it. I don't like this idea. I'm much happier with Burners without Borders which also has the virtue of being self-supporting instead of someone making a grab for ticket sales. It was only within the past two years that there was excess money it's amazing how quickly people are circling that like sharks. I think our energy is better spent on fixing the system than in creating a tiny drop in the bucket space where the rules are different. Or start a scholarship fund that is independent of BM even if it relies on burner donations and goes to some sort of burner friendly field.
Trae. I don't buy that because there are flaws in the system that the whole system sucks. As with *everything* there is good and bad. I don't think that invalidates the value of the institution.. one where thinkers and experienced people can pass on ideas and generate further thought discussion and discovery. Nothing wrong there as I see it. Of course it can suck. But apply the same yardstick to people and you can see the problem. Just because some people suck doesn't mean their whole nationality (for example) sucks. It's the generalizations ("most kids that go to college dont get an education at all") that don't ring true to me. So all that doesn't mean that w/o college one can't be smart creative and inventive. Not at all. But getting back to the tool idea.... I can do a lot more with hammer and nails than with chewing gum and a twig. One more tool in my kit. I may experiment with those tools in new ways. I may apply them using patterns I have experienced before and I may talk to you to get further ideas on how to make some neat useful thing out on the playa. I agree "doing" is really important. No qualms there. And as an aside one of the smartest people I have met (and I have met several Nobel prize winners) is my father who not only didn't go to college but didn't get to the equivalent of high school either. And he is always doing something. He has a keen analytical mind and applies it. From him. I learned to fix most things by just taking them apart and looking for the problem or figuring out what the most likely candidate is. And also just trying shit. So. I guess I am trying to say that one (college) shouldn't exclude the other (doing stuff). It's late.. pardon the random bits of coherency.
>I don't buy that because there are flaws in the system that the whole system sucks. As with *everything* there is good and bad. I don't think that invalidates the value of the institutionnot saying that im saying that if the bottom level of something is rotten the top level that relies on it is on pretty shaky ground (in other words if the flaw is the most basic idea of the model the whole model is flawed) our public schools are screwed totally because higher education rests on the achievements of standard schooling it is therefore screwed as well one huge issue even within the current model is that high school doesnt prepare kids for anything much less college then they go to college anyways because its simply 'what you do' spend a few years learning what they should already know (if they get that far) spend a few more years in a few different majors and end up with some general degree and have little choice but to become a teacher.. teaching the next generation of kids to do the same thing id rather see half those scholarships going towards paying teachers more so becoming a teacher is something of a goal rather then a default and education happens where it needs to im really not trying to say college sucks but its not even a judgement that can be made until education as a whole -works- course i still think the problem is with parents even though it isnt my place to judge raise your kids however you want (the general you there) but teaching them to think is the parents job the schools cant do it that one step right there solves most of the problem with schools because if a kid wants to learn something they will thats why i like on playa learning: there is a problem you -have- to figure out a solution theres no choice in the matter you might be able to do more with a hammer and nails.. but i suppose it depends on what your trying to do i dont think the college 'tool' is the right one for the job or doing what it is supposed to be either education is a really big complex issue though and its interesting to see what burners think about it.. but i hope we can agree now that we are not all gonna agree on it and that as such ticket money should not be put towards something of this nature if the original idea was implemented as a optional donation type thing within the community i think it would be pretty cool but not if it is coming out of my ticket money.>It's late.. pardon the random bits of coherency its the internet; i dont expect coherency so i expect others not to expect it of me too :)
So halftime revew... I had an American Dream theme idea that I thought BM might like. I threw down the idea here at 3 in the morning. 40 plus responses later I get... good ideacollege is stupidStudents are stupid drunksWe should reject traditional academics and teach each otherThere are too many people in the worldYou don't need an engineering degree to make a shade structureWhy bother the Chinese are making our stuff anywayDegrees are worthless... Unless you want a jobraise your own kids (I didn't breed. I mentor.. too many people remember?)Let 'em make art for itLet em fight in the Thunderdome for it. (hee)The whole educational system is brokenThis is Larry's money stop trying to spend itI do not want my tax (erm I mean ticket) money going to this flawed thing I do not participate in.& finally,No,stupid. This is Burning ManAs the kids say... OMFG! I wasn't even trying to trollBut here I am with a cauldron of shit and a big ol stick! This is AWESOME! I never get to be the bad guy!I'll admit I find some of these responses a bit dismal but. I have been jousting dismal all my life. I did have to unlearn one thing from school..."This is how the world ends--not with a bang but a whimper - T. S. Eliot (school)"Come on- don't give up now- things are just getting interesting"" (life)
>Anything that has lasting reprecussions outside the playa is great but to actually give scholarships to people who might not have a chance that's priceless so the idea is to give it to people that do nothing to deserve it (cause yanno if you can pull off a large scale art project on the playa you can probably pull of a college degree on your own meaning you have more then a chance at it)? how do you decide from the multitudes of people that do nothing which one gets the scholarship?>I find it hard to believe that anyone would say that this is a bad idea or not the responsibility of the community. It's an obviously good thing to do and conscious communities should do good things for people other than themselves i dont think anything we could come up with in the spirit of BM could be used as a yardstick to decide who gets a scholarship i think its a great idea as a grassroots community driven thing but not as an official part of BM or ticket related sales but no i still dont think its the responsibility of the community to provide education to the kids i will say again.. how is any of this in following with the 10 principles supposedly guiding the event?>Arguing about the value of college is silly. It may not be of value to you but it sure was to the last doctor you saw you mean the one that failed to check if the wound that almost cut off my thumb sliced through the tendon? (same doctor that failed to check the same thing on my buddy the month before.. lucky for me i didnt cut the tendon much he did and had to have his entire hand ripped open for re-connective surgery later.) yeah college did a lot for him or maybe the one that went to a substandard college somewhere else? this is most of my argument against college; we act as if that piece of paper actually means something when it doesnt at all ive gotten better medical information from vets then doctors! ymmv.
"so the idea is to give it to people that do nothing to deserve it"Why not give it to someone who does deserve it? "i think its a great idea as a grassroots community driven thing but not as an official part of BM or ticket related sales but no i still dont think its the responsibility of the community to provide education to the kids."Why not? " ive gotten better medical information from vets then doctors! ymmv."Veterinarians go to college too. You're story doesn't convince me to not go the hospital when I'm injured. Your arguments are incredibly uncompelling. It's a given that some people are smarter some colleges are better some pieces of paper are meaningless. I didn't go to college. I have never felt the desire or the need to go to college (although I did get an EMT cert at CCSF). In high school I would say to my teachers who wanted my to apply to universities. "Education has little to do with books or schools. It is a private experience between the person and the world of knowledge." That doesn't mean I don't want a well educated youth who get to go to college if they decide they want to. I want people to get PhD's in physics and microbiology and neuroscience. I'm generous enough to want to support anyone who wants this for themselves. I'm not going to let my personal feelings about going to college (ie: I don't want to) from supporting someone who does.
>Why not give it to someone who does deserve it? i said nothing about whether the person deserving or not saying everyone or no one deserves a scholarship amounts to the same thing as both positions are putting no qualifications on that 'deserve' yardstick the results will differ and imho the results of a situation where everyone has to work to get their funding turn out better im not saying people are not worth an education im saying they arent entitled to one and most definitely not at my expense.>Why not? because i dont think it results in a better situation giving people scholarships to go to college seems backwards to me.. i would rather see the scholarship money go to the colleges directly and in turn make it easier for people to get into colleges (and pay for them) on their own completely does not apply to the topic at hand but you asked.>Veterinarians go to college too. You're story doesn't convince me to not go the hospital when I'm injured the standards for doctors are higher then for vets and still in my experiences doesnt ensure that they are better i cant remember the lat time i received good care from a doctor personal experience and i dont expect that to be the same for everyone. >Arguing about the value of college is silly. It may not be of value to you but it sure was to the last doctor you saw your arguments arent convincing me either unless your talking about how the last doctor i saw is getting a high monetary return on his education in which case yes his education is of high value to him it hasnt been to me so why would i want to perpetuate a situation i dont see working?
Trae you seem like you might be an intelligent person but there are several reasons why your argument doesn't work. First off the doctor you saw is one doctor. Not all doctors are lame. Not all engineers are lame. Not all marine biologists are lame. Not everyone who went to college wasted their time. To infer that they did is.. well.. unintelligent. And reactionary. You're resistance to "a piece of paper" is indicative. I believe of your age and probably some experience which led you to reject the societal norm and what was expected of you. This is fine but when you are arguing a point you have to take on a wider perspective and separate the subjective from the objective. Objective arguments are the most successful because they speak to everyone. Saying that your subjective reactionary opinion is the way it should be is.. well.. unintelligent. Your experience with a bad doctor (and whatever societal expectation you've rejected) is unfortunate.. that doesn't mean nobody should go to college. Some doctors suck there's no doubt. I'm not a big proponent of western medicine - I think that that much of what they teach and are promoting is medicine and not actual health - if I had cancer or arthritis or any chronic condition I would go to an acupunturist and Tibetan herbalist and a naturopath. But I recognize that western medicine EXCELLS in trauma - and if I got hit by a car I would go to SF General. I've transported patients that have had their whole leg rebuilt out of muscles from their ass by a brilliant surgeon. That person went to college. Some of those people could afford college. Some people had their parents pay their whole way. Some took out ridiculous loans. Some worked their asses off and when their residencies (the thing I believe is wrong with medical school and should be outlawed) came along they starved (you can't work 100 hours a week and hold down a job). Having just the people who CAN afford to go to college doesn't guarantee that the most talented will get there. In Europe higher education is mostly free. If you want a PhD you can go. That means the most inspired people pursue their field and excell in it. It has nothing to do with whether or not they can afford it. Sure taxes are ridiculous in Sweden but I want to live in a society that supports everyone to become the best person they can be. Obviously you don't share this view. You seem to hold the "everyone for themselves" view which although is popular amongst white middle class males (dominant priviledged culture) has been proven to result in a society of desperation crime and well.. unintelligence.
'Having just the people who CAN afford to go to college doesn't guarantee that the most talented will get there.'No but recent reports seem to suggest that those who work harder to get into a university do better that having nearly free universities don't make for a population with a higher proportion of degrees and the European approach is faltering if not outright failing. By Nicole Itano | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor But as a whole. European universities have stagnated and now lag behind American universities by almost every measure - from funding to achievements in research to graduation rates. According to one ranking of international universities (Jiao Tong University in Shanghai which looked at research success) only two European universities - Oxford and Cambridge in England - cracked the Top 20. Seventeen of the top 20 were in the United States. There are other signs too that Europe is falling behind in the knowledge industry. Between 1901 and 1950. 73 percent of Nobel Prize-winners lived in what is now the European Union. Between 1995 and 2004. European-based academics won just 19 percent of the prestigious awards. And European nations devote less than 2 percent of their GDP to research and development compared with 2.6 percent in the US and 3.2 percent in Japan. Although a smaller percentage of Europeans complete higher education than Americans do - 21 percent of the working population compared with 38 percent in the US - European grads have a harder time finding jobs than their American counterparts. According to the EU among graduates ages 20 to 24. 12.3 percent of Europeans are unemployed compared with only 1.6 percent of Americans. One reason says Krzysztof Powlowski founder of Wyzsza Szkola Biznesu/National-Louis University a private university in Poland modeled on a US college is that traditional European universities pay little attention to the practicality of degrees or the quality of graduates.
Well one thing college taught me is that single data points don't make a trend. You had a bad medical experience does not mean that degrees are worthless. I also noted that you keep referring to the "piece of paper" as if that is the end goal of an education. Nope it is the experience and thoughfulness and probing into new areas that has value. The exposure to great art and literature and science and debate.. these are good things. So there are several tangents in the discussion: worthiness of higher education being one of them. How to award a scholarship is another. I agree about the awarding of a scholarship.. not an easy undertaking but also there is precedent upon which one can draw. Maybe not the thing for Burning Man but not a bad idea either. It truly does involve lifting up the community. What part of the 10 principals? Beats me... I haven't committed them to memory. Related question: does every playa-related action have to link to one (or more) of the 10 principals? I hope not but the act shouldn't go against any of them either... and by the way vets are skilled *doctors* who must learn details about several species not just one and who take their responsibilities very seriously and bring much good to the world. I don't rank them lower than a physician.
This touches on one of the things that inspired me. Making and delivering a big art piece to BM is a big endeavor. It takes months of your life and thousands of dollars. It is a huge process. The Neverwas.. The Mousetrap.. even my goofy thing..... In order to do it you have to be half insane. Obsessed doesn't even begin to describe it. When you participate in something like this you start to get the feeling that you can accomplish anything you can rise to any occasion clean the mess and fix the broken. There is no need to sit in a bad situation waiting for someone to clean it up. On this we agree. What if you could take that energy and focus it inward? I never said that the grants should not be earned. Certainly you have to do more than ask. You have to do more than sign a request form. You have to believe in something and believe in it deeply. You have to be willing to sacrifice to make a work of art... out of yourself. That is possible you know. Making a work of art out of yourself. I choose college because I believe in college. I believe in libraries too.. and public broadcasting... and anything else that makes an attempt to bring out the best in humanity.
?..... Kind of makes the whole proposition fall apart for those of us who have had the bad fortune to be forced to rely on MDs."Doctors" aren't beneficent saviors of civilization so much as a priesthood of pompous and parasitic meteorologists that get your life savings whether they help you or not. You may have anecdotes to the contrary but in a sick person's life one starts to see a pattern in the the behavior of those who society has deemed "Doktor" by dint of 8 years and Cs of Gs thrown on the altar of "school". I'll nominally support the idea if the scholarships are restricted to:• Theology• History• English• Fine Arts• PhilosophyOne of the little shits goes for a Business degree should invalidate the grant and obligate the grantee to give the whole sum to another kid who promises to do the right thing otherwise I'm going to hobble the fuck over there and burn down your ugly totemic goddamned fascist Man earlier still. Give scholarships for "Fucking Shit Up - Hardcore Style". All else is mere appeasement.
I have been really enjoying this discussion & all.. loving the free flow. But one humble request... Geekster. Please don't compare this to a Thanksgiving food bank. I don't know what scary stuff is hitting your imagination but believe me! This common denominator -1984 style -commie hell -nanny state educational soup kitchen is coming strictly from your own head brrr.. wow. Shiver.. I never ever thought of this as charity... Nobody is robbing anyone of their soul or dignity. This isn't about giving rotten potatoes and company funded horsemeat to the homeless seriously. Thats horrible!And.. last I remember getting an education *is* about working earning and achievement. But if the main worry here is that some lay-about do nothing is going to get away with $4.10 of your (and Larry's) hard earned money over the next four years why don't we simply ask the student what they want to do with it and what they would like to contribute to the world. Make it a "pay it forward" sort of thing... BTW. Trae. I hear you. I wish that the schools could be better set up to give more opportunity too The volunteer thing might work... But that is an awful lot of paperwork! It would cost as much to set the accounting as the grants ithemselves!! (That is why charities spend so much on administration) That's too much work for a one time thing. It might work under BRAF. It could be worth it to BM... Showing the world that BRAF has that kind of potential.... But the question is... Is it art? Or would They think its art... Look at me talking like this!!!... this is Silly! I don't want to spend Larry's money... I just want to send them an idea and see if he wants to spend his own money.... You guys are trying to turn me into a politician. Bad people!!!!
I can't believe what I'm reading..... What's the deal with the negativity towards college? I'm dumbfounded to say the least to see so many "enlightened" people dissing the one thing that allows ANYONE to rise above their otherwise dismal standing in life. To say that higher learning (or the attempt) is pointless is like saying "we're stupid and we want to stay that way". Not everyone that goes to college ends up with drug induced brain damage. (Possible exception of Trae) The degree will get you the job over the guy/gal that doesn't have it. And I'm sorry most employers aren't going to consider your time on the playa as a particularly useful skills enhancement substitute. I don't care how many yurts you managed to cobble together with baling wire and bubblegum. I'm a general contractor and I have a lot of respect for those people that can manage to come up the way I did... the hard way. On the other hand. I never hire anyone that doesn't have proof of some kind of secondary education. I've been burned way too many times by the "baling-wire-and-bubblegum-trick-you-learned-on-the-playa". Say all you want about college but it does tell an employer one very important thing about you; namely that you have the drive to get ahead and you're willing pay the price to get there. As for the "fuck your kids" attitude all I can say is. I hope your car is Lo-jacked. Or maybe the community you live in is impervious to the consequences of an under educated population. Let's see that would include (but not be limited to) gang violence soaring crime rates and rampant drug abuse. Somehow I doubt it. Having said that. I'm not sure if BM should be handing out scholarships or not. But it's an interesting idea that deserves an intelligent debate. Or are some of you simply pretending to be enlightened?
<On the other hand. I never hire anyone that doesn't have proof of some kind of secondary education. I've been burned way too many times by the "baling-wire-and-bubblegum-trick-you-learned-on-the-playa". Say all you want about college but it does tell an employer one very important thing about you; namely that you have the drive to get ahead and you're willing pay the price to get there.>On the *other* other hand when I was a software development manager I found that the people who were actually programmers and not bluffers were the ones who didn't have the college degrees. So many times I interviewed people who had the degrees but simply couldn't write code when I tested them. I'd simply ask the applicant to write code that connected to a database and displayed a list of names on a listbox. It was OPEN BOOK where all the help menus programming books and even code snippets were available to them just as these would normally be in the job. I told them I didn't care what the code looked like or which of several programming methods they used to accomplish the task. The test was to simply get the result I wanted. The people who were self-starters and programmed as a hobby were able to do the task in about 10 minutes. Most often these folks had no degrees and fairly short resumes. What got me was the people with the computer science degrees who 45 minutes later didn't even know how to put a list box on a screen let alone connect it to a database. One guy expressed contempt and stormed out of the office yelling that he had never been so insulted in his life! A woman spent half an hour crying. A man stared at the screen for half an hour and simply didn't do anything. These were all folks who had responded to an ad looking for experienced programmers! So while I think the college experience is valuable. I do question some of the degrees the universities hand out.
>Not everyone that goes to college ends up with drug induced brain damage. (Possible exception of Trae)thanks for singling me out is that the result of your higher education? >As for the "fuck your kids" attitude all I can say is. I hope your car is Lo-jacked. Or maybe the community you live in is impervious to the consequences of an under educated population. Let's see that would include (but not be limited to) gang violence soaring crime rates and rampant drug abuse. Somehow I doubt it.'fuck your kids' is a response to parents thinking their children are entitled to the profit of my work i made the choice not to have kids until i could provide a life for them others didnt make that choice the entitlement ethic says i should be penalized for making the better choice fuck that and fuck anyone who thinks it and somehow i dont think buying into the situation is going to make it better if all you can see in that is 'fuck your kids' your missing the point congrats to fko on sensationalizing that part though and by that sidestepping the entire real discussion. >Having said that. I'm not sure if BM should be handing out scholarships or not. But it's an interesting idea that deserves an intelligent debate. Or are some of you simply pretending to be enlightened?at least we agree there well not agree im pretty sure BM should not be handing out scholarships but its better then the rest really the entire education discussion is rather away from the point i dont think college is bad in theory i hink its broken in practice the entitlement thing is completely separate and i am entirely against that in any situation i am also against anything that is going to help drive up ticket prices but oh my im not a socialist does that make me un-enlightened?the amazing part though? with 50k people if someone could get $1 from each the basic cost in the original idea would be covered an optional donation at the ticket counter would be cool (though the question below still applies). THAT i would get behind regardless of my issues with the educational system what yardstick at BM could be used to decide what individual got a scholarship? why limit it to a scholarship why not offer a charitable donation grant to whoever (cause a lot of BM people aint in their college years yanno)?
What an interesting discussion. I do think that University can be a very good thing. It's unfortunate but that little slip of paper does make a difference. Personally speaking there were certainly some things that I learned in University. Grad school was amazing. But these are just my personal experiences. Though now that I have that slip of paper. I don't plan on ever returning to formal education. When I want to learn something new. I far prefer the much cheaper approach of learning on my own. With books and the internet there is very little that you can learn in a school which you cannot instead just learn on your own. And. DangerAngel. I was the white kid going through Oakland Public Schools. :-) [ When it came down to it it was segregated as hell with the whites american born chinese and a few middle class blacks in the advanced tracks - and everyone else in lower tracks ]I'm not opposed to good work happening through Burningman. I do think that scholarships are good work. Certainly. I think that the pros outweigh the cons. But it just doesn't seem to fit into the burner ethos as I understand it. I think that it's far better to set up our own schools of learning rather than to rely on the flawed traditional systems. Just attending Burningman is apparently a plus on your resume at google. The burner community does have some amazing credibility and "brand". I don't think that this brand should be used to make Larry richer. But I'm perfectly okay with it being used to create our own burner schools. Who else can imagine a burner institute free or cheap school of learning which issues certifications that have real meaning?
<I think that we have some real things of value which we could teach. >Self-reliance building temporary buildings that can withstand the elements (a good skill to put to use in disaster areas) lots of stuff. But "green energy"? Uh no. BMan participants are the least-green anyone can be. Being on the grid and using power company power is far more efficient greenwise than using those godawful diesel and gasoline generators. For one power plants are inspected regularly for pollution and it is in their best interests to be as clean as possible because running cleaner saves more money on fuel. Ultimately though the only green energy is derived from water wind and sun power. Sun is way too inefficient wind is too tempermental. That leaves water and unfortunately the Sierra Club wants to remove the dam from the Hetch Hetchy Valley which would require SF to buy power on the open market -- and that open market would most likely be coal-fired.
>But you will be penalized for your lack of charity for those that have less that you do whether you like it or not so being charitable makes you immune to crime? i missed something there... >Someone give whitey some Oakland education please i havent been to oakland but i imagine you mean the same things i learned growing up poor in detroit amazingly even those that arent of the white middle-class can have thoughts stereotypically from that group and i still dont think playing to societies lowest ability results in anything good i went through the broken schools systems i grew up in the middle of everything you claim free education will cure and if people were giving me handouts (or i accepted them to be more correct) i would probably still be there instead when i was young enough someone taught me to want to learn and to do things myself. THAT is what cured the environmental factor not charity and sympathy not looking for a cookie but correcting an assumption.
if all you can see in that is 'fuck your kids' your missing the point congrats to fko on sensationalizing that part though and by that sidestepping the entire real discussion. wow trae. Brave enough to take me on impressive. Ok the real discussion. Correct me if i'm wrong. But you are of the opinion (which I support by the way) that "It is not nor should be the RESPONSIBILITY Of Burningman (llc or participant population) to provide for education for at least "the children" Ok. I respect that. But here's where I come to the conclusion that you suffer from self sufficency dillusions that extend beyond logic and usefulness. #1 Yoru ticket money is already being used to educate "the children" and way beyond their mirco existence into the greater world of dare I say it "non burners!" oh my! Yes in fact much of your money is directly being spent on public art public out reach and community intergration programs that allow Bunringman to not only exist whithin the good workings of civil structures but also extend into positive publicity aimed at spreading burningman values and principles into the greater world. The education you so wish to not fund is.. ahem... already funded. Your hard earend self suffiecent dollar is being used in ways you did not approve of.. boo hoo#2 I can not believe that anyone including you can claim what burningman values and principles are and then shoot down another person's idea about "anything". What diference would it make to anyone if any idea that has nothing to do with you grows and becomes fulfillment."(whine)but the ticket prices?"We'll get to that in a second. Acting like education for kids is bad for the event is a clear example of habit thinking. It's not up my skirt so it musn't be up anybodies. What kind of moronic logic say Fuck education? What kind of stupidity says" I don't mind giving an event 300 bucks but if they spend it on children i'm so fucking out of here? What lind of debate do you expect to have when you say "the real isse here is ticket prices"?Ticket prices. You support the BRAF. You Support The BLM. The city of Gerlach. The State Troopers and the State of Nevada. Do you think none of them are spending their money they get from your ticket on the Children? and not to rub it in butt.... Like you have any say in the matter. You certainly did not help us keep prices down this last year. And I doubt you'll help this year either. Matter of fact I'm gonna give money to lots of children this year. All my ticket money is going to be spent of sombody else children. You can't do a fucking thing about it! I don't know you. But You come acroos like many of the big mouth gimme gimme gimme people who think they have it all figured out becuase you realized entitlement is a negative value in our culture. Somebody give him a fucking prise already!We'll i hate to break it to ya but the world is much more complex that just that fact. After your done on that first year philosophy book get on the one about rightousness about gun germs and steel and lets meet back here in seven years after you uncovered exactly how not getting involved in education has created your world. Go ahead. 'fuck supporting any children" There are enough of us who see the generational relationship to survive your selfishness. Hopefully you'll use that self educated brain of yours to wipe your ass when you get to old to do it yourself. But hey fuck your day ya know?oxoxofucko
>wow trae,>Brave enough to take me on impressive actually that was completely serious it was a marvelous marketing sidestep i took the bit and ran with it we arent even talking about children here burners are (except for those there with parental supervision) adults. >Your hard earend self suffiecent dollar is being used in ways you did not approve of.. boo hoo yep so lets not make it any worse eh? but seriously what program of BMOrg (or even BRAF) is actively selecting individuals to fund for higher education? remember above i advocated money being directly given to schools schools are great the educational system is broken if they are doing that i dont think they are "spreading burningman values and principles into the greater world." in fact i would say they are doing the opposite.>#2 I can not believe that anyone including you can claim what burningman values and principles are and then shoot down another person's idea about "anything". What diference would it make to anyone if any idea that has nothing to do with you grows and becomes fulfillment everyone favors one of the values more then the rest im sure can you guess which one i do? i didnt in fact shoot down anyones idea i actually suggested an alternate way that i feel would be far more in keeping with the values suppose i did shoot down an idea.. but not without that alternate suggestion that makes it constructive criticism. >Acting like education for kids is bad for the event is a clear example of habit thinking it would probably be good PR for the event.. but i dont think it would be in keeping to its values the latter makes it overall bad for the event imo i would say the same thing of BWB if it were funded by the BMOrg i generally try to limit my knee-jerk responses and admit if i made one i dont think i did here.>What kind of moronic logic say Fuck education?dunno not me education is great but our educational system is still broken i dont think a few drops in the bucket from our community is going to |